I don't like men that expect women to figuratively wipe their rear ends. Often men expect women to cook and keep house for them even if both partners work. Thankfully my husband is a true partner and I find that very attractive. Watching how other couples act especially heterosexual couples my age and older the woman tends to be doing so much care giving that it makes me respect her husband much less.
Alright I can't help but say it. In response to your question, "So it’s worth asking, are women attracted to men as people, or are they attracted to men as a concept?" This is a false dichotomy. It's certainly possible to be attracted to their bodies.
interesting! so are you saying some women are attracted to men but only purely on a physical level? sort of similar to how many misogynistic men feel about women??
hmm for a while now, i've had the sneaking suspicion that the world isn't as bad as the internet makes it out to be. i'd probably include (heterosexual) love and romance in that. i honestly think people get too wrapped up in online dynamics and think it applies to the real world. men especially do this with manosphere content. i don't know a single person in my life who acts or talks like people often do online.
one thing that makes it worse is that we all know the one thing that doesn't exist on the internet is nuance.
also, and i'd apply this to everyone (myself included), but do you know what all your failed relationships have in common? look in the mirror. you are the one common denominator of all your relationships, romantic or otherwise. you can blame the opposite sex all you want, but most often it's a way to deflect away from accountability and fixing your own flaws. so yeah, if you're a woman and you think dating other women is going to be utopian, you might be setting yourself up for disappointment.
i also agree with you that all these declarations from both men and women about the opposite sex seem more performative to me than anything else. if that wasn't the case, most people wouldn't feel the need to make sure everyone knows about it
and one last thing, what you wrote really only applies to the western, developed world. in the developing world, all this is very much not the case
idk i’ve talked to women in zambia who had a lot more hate in their heart for the men who have hurt them than some of the women i’ve interviewed in america. and i definitely don’t think men hating women is a western phenomenon
also one problem people have when they date is that the issues they have sometimes become self fulfilling prophecies. if you go into dating thinking the other sex are trash or gold diggers or whatever, you're going to act in a way that will prove those assertions right, often subconsciously. see also confirmation bias and selection bias.
also when straight men hear and read women say stuff like this, they often figure why even bother if all women are going to hate me anyway from the start and no matter what i do. and they're satisfied enough with video games and porn so they just give up on finding a girlfriend
Old-ass cisgender hetero white male, once divorced, twice (22 times?) shy. After Kermit-waddling into another red-flag parade, while overlooking or not appreciating better hearts, I took myself out two years ago, partly because I had to care for a dying mom, who inadvertently opened the peepers wider when she welcomed me home (from a broken-relationship vacation) by screaming, for about five minutes: "I just want to die! Why won't you let me die?" As I sat, waiting for that, too, to pass, thought: "Who's stopping you?" Not proud. Worried I was damaging her health, Great Santini-style. These caregiver years stank, and not just for physical and time demands. Freud could have diagnosed my relationship issues from a century and ocean away. Paul Westerberg: "The ones who love us least/are the ones we'll die to please/if it's any consolation/I don't begin to understand." Mom recently passed, and while I'm handling her estate, cleaning out the hoard, it feels like I'm subbing busywork rather than dwell on loneliness. Don't want to dive back into bars, feel distanced from online dating, and am afraid of hurting thoughtful pals who offer to set me up, because I've made that sort of thing awkward before (again, not proud, but I ghosted where I should have communicated "No, thanks." Trying to get better, in the same way I'm a recovering mansplainer). About half my women pals seem to be where you describe: Recently divorced or otherwise separated, still interested in/attracted to men, but so annoyed, disappointed, with prospects. Feels like ALL, including those still coupled, talk -- only partly kidding -- about switching to women as partners. Funny/sad comnent from one: "Wish I possessed half the confidence of the average mediocre male." Other things they say: Men don't read. Men won't read. Men won't adapt (change, alter, accommodate). Men expect a mother/nurse/teacher/whore in the bedroom. ... Long time back, I used to be a fair matchmaker, good at reading rooms, patterns (not for me, but). Set up a number of couples, at least six of whom got married, with kids (one couple divorced, but the others are still together). I keep my eyes open for these friends, and ... can't see a single guy I'd nudge their way. Could be my circle of acquaintances has grown too small. But sometimes it feels like the world that's shriveled.
like i said above, the one thing all the relationships that your women pals have been in have in common are themselves. not victim blaming here at all, but i think it's always a good idea for both men and women to look inwards if a lot or all of their relationships aren't good ones.
i know there is this video on YouTube from a woman who started dating other women and found that by doing so, she began to understand what men were saying more and that everything wasn't their fault.
my therapist told me that one thing that would help everyone is if we gave each other more grace. we're all just flawed human beings trying our best in this imperfect world. i think a lot of people have been less willing to accept people's flaws. relationships are all about give and take from both sides
But the only thing EVERY relationship has in common is ourselves. That's true; it's just not revealing. And it IS victim-blaming, of a passive-aggressive sort.
I am cautiously opening myself up to dating queer women, even though my default has always been “straight.”
I still like straight men in theory. In practice, I suspect my long-term partnership might be with a queer woman or queer folks, and straight men might just be… for sex. It will definitely take some unlearning and re-learning with this new direction, but it's not gonna hurt to try.
I don't like men that expect women to figuratively wipe their rear ends. Often men expect women to cook and keep house for them even if both partners work. Thankfully my husband is a true partner and I find that very attractive. Watching how other couples act especially heterosexual couples my age and older the woman tends to be doing so much care giving that it makes me respect her husband much less.
yes i think there’s a term for that MANKEEPING!!!
Alright I can't help but say it. In response to your question, "So it’s worth asking, are women attracted to men as people, or are they attracted to men as a concept?" This is a false dichotomy. It's certainly possible to be attracted to their bodies.
interesting! so are you saying some women are attracted to men but only purely on a physical level? sort of similar to how many misogynistic men feel about women??
i haven't heard or read about this topic at all. it would be very interesting to look into
hmm for a while now, i've had the sneaking suspicion that the world isn't as bad as the internet makes it out to be. i'd probably include (heterosexual) love and romance in that. i honestly think people get too wrapped up in online dynamics and think it applies to the real world. men especially do this with manosphere content. i don't know a single person in my life who acts or talks like people often do online.
one thing that makes it worse is that we all know the one thing that doesn't exist on the internet is nuance.
also, and i'd apply this to everyone (myself included), but do you know what all your failed relationships have in common? look in the mirror. you are the one common denominator of all your relationships, romantic or otherwise. you can blame the opposite sex all you want, but most often it's a way to deflect away from accountability and fixing your own flaws. so yeah, if you're a woman and you think dating other women is going to be utopian, you might be setting yourself up for disappointment.
i also agree with you that all these declarations from both men and women about the opposite sex seem more performative to me than anything else. if that wasn't the case, most people wouldn't feel the need to make sure everyone knows about it
and one last thing, what you wrote really only applies to the western, developed world. in the developing world, all this is very much not the case
idk i’ve talked to women in zambia who had a lot more hate in their heart for the men who have hurt them than some of the women i’ve interviewed in america. and i definitely don’t think men hating women is a western phenomenon
not exactly what i meant, but i see your point
also one problem people have when they date is that the issues they have sometimes become self fulfilling prophecies. if you go into dating thinking the other sex are trash or gold diggers or whatever, you're going to act in a way that will prove those assertions right, often subconsciously. see also confirmation bias and selection bias.
also when straight men hear and read women say stuff like this, they often figure why even bother if all women are going to hate me anyway from the start and no matter what i do. and they're satisfied enough with video games and porn so they just give up on finding a girlfriend
pls tell me why i’m wrong in the comments!!!
Old-ass cisgender hetero white male, once divorced, twice (22 times?) shy. After Kermit-waddling into another red-flag parade, while overlooking or not appreciating better hearts, I took myself out two years ago, partly because I had to care for a dying mom, who inadvertently opened the peepers wider when she welcomed me home (from a broken-relationship vacation) by screaming, for about five minutes: "I just want to die! Why won't you let me die?" As I sat, waiting for that, too, to pass, thought: "Who's stopping you?" Not proud. Worried I was damaging her health, Great Santini-style. These caregiver years stank, and not just for physical and time demands. Freud could have diagnosed my relationship issues from a century and ocean away. Paul Westerberg: "The ones who love us least/are the ones we'll die to please/if it's any consolation/I don't begin to understand." Mom recently passed, and while I'm handling her estate, cleaning out the hoard, it feels like I'm subbing busywork rather than dwell on loneliness. Don't want to dive back into bars, feel distanced from online dating, and am afraid of hurting thoughtful pals who offer to set me up, because I've made that sort of thing awkward before (again, not proud, but I ghosted where I should have communicated "No, thanks." Trying to get better, in the same way I'm a recovering mansplainer). About half my women pals seem to be where you describe: Recently divorced or otherwise separated, still interested in/attracted to men, but so annoyed, disappointed, with prospects. Feels like ALL, including those still coupled, talk -- only partly kidding -- about switching to women as partners. Funny/sad comnent from one: "Wish I possessed half the confidence of the average mediocre male." Other things they say: Men don't read. Men won't read. Men won't adapt (change, alter, accommodate). Men expect a mother/nurse/teacher/whore in the bedroom. ... Long time back, I used to be a fair matchmaker, good at reading rooms, patterns (not for me, but). Set up a number of couples, at least six of whom got married, with kids (one couple divorced, but the others are still together). I keep my eyes open for these friends, and ... can't see a single guy I'd nudge their way. Could be my circle of acquaintances has grown too small. But sometimes it feels like the world that's shriveled.
𝘈𝘣𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘩𝘢𝘭𝘧 𝘮𝘺 𝘸𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘯 𝘱𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘴𝘦𝘦𝘮 𝘵𝘰 𝘣𝘦 𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘤𝘳𝘪𝘣𝘦: 𝘙𝘦𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘥𝘪𝘷𝘰𝘳𝘤𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘳 𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘸𝘪𝘴𝘦 𝘴𝘦𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘢𝘵𝘦𝘥, 𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘪𝘯/𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘳𝘢𝘤𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘮𝘦𝘯, 𝘣𝘶𝘵 𝘴𝘰 𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘰𝘺𝘦𝘥, 𝘥𝘪𝘴𝘢𝘱𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘥, 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘱𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘴. 𝘍𝘦𝘦𝘭𝘴 𝘭𝘪𝘬𝘦 𝘈𝘓𝘓, 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘶𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘥, 𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬 -- 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘬𝘪𝘥𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 -- 𝘢𝘣𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘴𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘤𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘰 𝘸𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘯 𝘢𝘴 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘯𝘦𝘳𝘴.
like i said above, the one thing all the relationships that your women pals have been in have in common are themselves. not victim blaming here at all, but i think it's always a good idea for both men and women to look inwards if a lot or all of their relationships aren't good ones.
i know there is this video on YouTube from a woman who started dating other women and found that by doing so, she began to understand what men were saying more and that everything wasn't their fault.
my therapist told me that one thing that would help everyone is if we gave each other more grace. we're all just flawed human beings trying our best in this imperfect world. i think a lot of people have been less willing to accept people's flaws. relationships are all about give and take from both sides
But the only thing EVERY relationship has in common is ourselves. That's true; it's just not revealing. And it IS victim-blaming, of a passive-aggressive sort.
I am cautiously opening myself up to dating queer women, even though my default has always been “straight.”
I still like straight men in theory. In practice, I suspect my long-term partnership might be with a queer woman or queer folks, and straight men might just be… for sex. It will definitely take some unlearning and re-learning with this new direction, but it's not gonna hurt to try.