The sentence “ They don’t know which parts of their prototypical masculine roles to keep and which ones to toss, and they’re not sure what to replace them with“
This sums up so much of my thoughts and feelings over the past 15 years, thank you so much for articulating this.
Like allot of people I typically want to impress and catch the interest of a potential partner, I get a bit lost on what that’s supposed to be. Maybe I’m approaching romance in the wrong way.
Thanks for this Liz. I guess I feel lucky as straight guy in that I've always genuinely liked women, and I think, with some years on me, I've learned to deeply love and respect and value them. What I don't love is the hegemonic definition of heterosexual relationships that most of us grew up with that create so much bullshit that, well, no wonder non-straights are having a chuckle at our expense. I have also found that having deep **homosocial** relationships with other men has helped me to relate better with both men and women, in part by way of the opportunity to practice non-sexual intimacy.
One question for you, since you call out the lack of positive examples for men... Why not point some out yourself? I love your writing and the work that you're doing, but, and, I have the feeling that pieces like this sort of reinforce the backward-looking stereotype. There are actually lots of good examples out there for men.
I suppose I should have my own list ready. Well... just about every man that I know, to begin with. And all the guys that I've interviewed on my Brothers and Teachers podcast, which is part of the mission of that show, in fact. And so many others. Peace!
The psychology today article you mentioned wasn't very good. It was poorly researched, only took a few data points and the author also cited...his dating call-in show on tiktok. Ultimately, the article was a therapist encouraging men to level up their mental health game by...going to therapy. That's all, no mention of atomization, or how our culture is literally designed to keep us all apart, just another uncreative, unoriginal, unimaginative, uninspired, underwhelming, thoughtless, thickheaded, think piece that says "Men's issues are all their fault as individuals and they have a personal responsibility to fix them." These takes are as predictable as the tides, and the worst part is that they always act like they're the first person who thought of them.
One day, I hope that the internet will come to terms with its obsession with therapy. One never takes into consideration, cost, scheduling, or the fact that there are a lot of bad therapists out there. The internet talks about therapy like its a panacea for mental health...when it's not. Therapy is a good thing, I wouldn't be in it myself if I thought otherwise but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that therapy is the answer to everything.
I understand your point Drew, but I think it's important to remember the very male grievances that we make women responsible or frame as their preferences, are actually rooted in the patriarchy, a system that men themselves created. Women are in fact more adamant on dating their equal financially and intellectually, while men aren't as concerned perhaps because they don't value women's intellect as much and that they tend to fare better than women economically. I think we can honor the issues men deal with but make sure we don't blame women for them!
I believe your question touches on one perceived falsehood and another competing interest. Men, in general, overwhelmingly try to date "up" when it comes to while avoiding traits which would make for a suitable life partner. This is exacerbated by the issue that women still have difficulties with pay parity in relation to men. So some women, in order to assure a level of security do not want to risk a relationship where they have to support their partner. Especially when at home they are expected to handle the nearly all of the daily chores.
So cab drivers trying to date executives who are also much more attractive than them getting offended at rejection. Then go one to to say things like women should be more open to dating "nice guys" as if the only qualification needs to be "I might not be an obsessive and abusive human being"
Conversely people like Pete Davidson consistently having relationships with successful and attractive women is seen as some freak event and due solely to the fact that he's rumoured to have a large penis. But he is fairly wealthy, albeit emotionally stunted in some regards. But he's also aware of himself emotionally. Kim Kardashian went from a man who refuses to accept his severe mental illness to someone who talks openly about his struggles and acknowledges them. He's also a gentle man who is doesn't care to outshine his partner in every instance.
So to flip your script, women who are better off have difficulties finding men because those men prefer women they can control financially or inherently with a larger age gap. A certain level of dominance is expected. And women who have difficulty navigating an economic system and work culture which favors men may be willing to make allowances for these men who are better off socioeconomically where other women may not be because they don't have to make that compromise.
I love your interpretation of pete davidson vs kanye really thoughtful and incisive Anthony! It shows that the size of a man's manhood is now measured by his emotional intelligence rather than the physical size of it...
we expect a lot from women now, that they can do both roles well, both inside and outside the home, and women are therefore expecting more from men too.
I appreciate your idea of women already having the burden of emotional work and not wanting to take on financial responsibility in addition to that.
LOL you can't say "all excellent points" and then immediately follow it up with a string of points as patently false as "women are more selective than men and easily turned off, plus they are into money."
Chilllll. None of that is true and they are not valid grievances. They're just a projection of your own personal insecurities onto a whole group of people who don't deserve it.
"Why aren't male grievances taken seriously?" Trust me my dude, the entire world ALREADY revolves around everybody taking our grievances way too seriously. That's not what's broken.
Your problems almost certainly stem from the incorrect belief that women owe you anything just for being a "stud," and your boorish complaints are just rationalizations for what are likely reasonable rejections based in good personal taste and sense.
My advice? Minimum 12 months of talk therapy, focus on your exes, your relationship with your mother, your father's relationship with your mother, maybe your relationship with money, and please stop thinking about women (or any person for that matter) like a singular "group" that you have any understanding of.
I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just trying to make you see the critical error in thinking the way that you're thinking. They. Don't. Owe. You. Men are just as selective (or not), sexually complex (or simplistic), and financially motivated (or ignorant) as women. Everyone's unique and different is the whole point.
Humble yourself, studmuffin. If you're reading LP you're probably a good guy deep down, but straight men are (unsurprisingly) not the victims here! 😉
The sentence “ They don’t know which parts of their prototypical masculine roles to keep and which ones to toss, and they’re not sure what to replace them with“
This sums up so much of my thoughts and feelings over the past 15 years, thank you so much for articulating this.
I've heard it over and over again I totally get the confusion!
Like allot of people I typically want to impress and catch the interest of a potential partner, I get a bit lost on what that’s supposed to be. Maybe I’m approaching romance in the wrong way.
Great read, thanks! Reminds me of Mona Chollet’s « Réinventer l’amour ».
oh gotta check it out!
Thanks for this Liz. I guess I feel lucky as straight guy in that I've always genuinely liked women, and I think, with some years on me, I've learned to deeply love and respect and value them. What I don't love is the hegemonic definition of heterosexual relationships that most of us grew up with that create so much bullshit that, well, no wonder non-straights are having a chuckle at our expense. I have also found that having deep **homosocial** relationships with other men has helped me to relate better with both men and women, in part by way of the opportunity to practice non-sexual intimacy.
One question for you, since you call out the lack of positive examples for men... Why not point some out yourself? I love your writing and the work that you're doing, but, and, I have the feeling that pieces like this sort of reinforce the backward-looking stereotype. There are actually lots of good examples out there for men.
I suppose I should have my own list ready. Well... just about every man that I know, to begin with. And all the guys that I've interviewed on my Brothers and Teachers podcast, which is part of the mission of that show, in fact. And so many others. Peace!
The psychology today article you mentioned wasn't very good. It was poorly researched, only took a few data points and the author also cited...his dating call-in show on tiktok. Ultimately, the article was a therapist encouraging men to level up their mental health game by...going to therapy. That's all, no mention of atomization, or how our culture is literally designed to keep us all apart, just another uncreative, unoriginal, unimaginative, uninspired, underwhelming, thoughtless, thickheaded, think piece that says "Men's issues are all their fault as individuals and they have a personal responsibility to fix them." These takes are as predictable as the tides, and the worst part is that they always act like they're the first person who thought of them.
One day, I hope that the internet will come to terms with its obsession with therapy. One never takes into consideration, cost, scheduling, or the fact that there are a lot of bad therapists out there. The internet talks about therapy like its a panacea for mental health...when it's not. Therapy is a good thing, I wouldn't be in it myself if I thought otherwise but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that therapy is the answer to everything.
"Some even tried dating women”
How true is what you said? Did these women continue to date women? Were they really heterosexual?
This affects the reliability of your article do inglês
I understand your point Drew, but I think it's important to remember the very male grievances that we make women responsible or frame as their preferences, are actually rooted in the patriarchy, a system that men themselves created. Women are in fact more adamant on dating their equal financially and intellectually, while men aren't as concerned perhaps because they don't value women's intellect as much and that they tend to fare better than women economically. I think we can honor the issues men deal with but make sure we don't blame women for them!
I believe your question touches on one perceived falsehood and another competing interest. Men, in general, overwhelmingly try to date "up" when it comes to while avoiding traits which would make for a suitable life partner. This is exacerbated by the issue that women still have difficulties with pay parity in relation to men. So some women, in order to assure a level of security do not want to risk a relationship where they have to support their partner. Especially when at home they are expected to handle the nearly all of the daily chores.
So cab drivers trying to date executives who are also much more attractive than them getting offended at rejection. Then go one to to say things like women should be more open to dating "nice guys" as if the only qualification needs to be "I might not be an obsessive and abusive human being"
Conversely people like Pete Davidson consistently having relationships with successful and attractive women is seen as some freak event and due solely to the fact that he's rumoured to have a large penis. But he is fairly wealthy, albeit emotionally stunted in some regards. But he's also aware of himself emotionally. Kim Kardashian went from a man who refuses to accept his severe mental illness to someone who talks openly about his struggles and acknowledges them. He's also a gentle man who is doesn't care to outshine his partner in every instance.
So to flip your script, women who are better off have difficulties finding men because those men prefer women they can control financially or inherently with a larger age gap. A certain level of dominance is expected. And women who have difficulty navigating an economic system and work culture which favors men may be willing to make allowances for these men who are better off socioeconomically where other women may not be because they don't have to make that compromise.
I love your interpretation of pete davidson vs kanye really thoughtful and incisive Anthony! It shows that the size of a man's manhood is now measured by his emotional intelligence rather than the physical size of it...
we expect a lot from women now, that they can do both roles well, both inside and outside the home, and women are therefore expecting more from men too.
I appreciate your idea of women already having the burden of emotional work and not wanting to take on financial responsibility in addition to that.
LOL you can't say "all excellent points" and then immediately follow it up with a string of points as patently false as "women are more selective than men and easily turned off, plus they are into money."
Chilllll. None of that is true and they are not valid grievances. They're just a projection of your own personal insecurities onto a whole group of people who don't deserve it.
"Why aren't male grievances taken seriously?" Trust me my dude, the entire world ALREADY revolves around everybody taking our grievances way too seriously. That's not what's broken.
Your problems almost certainly stem from the incorrect belief that women owe you anything just for being a "stud," and your boorish complaints are just rationalizations for what are likely reasonable rejections based in good personal taste and sense.
My advice? Minimum 12 months of talk therapy, focus on your exes, your relationship with your mother, your father's relationship with your mother, maybe your relationship with money, and please stop thinking about women (or any person for that matter) like a singular "group" that you have any understanding of.
I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just trying to make you see the critical error in thinking the way that you're thinking. They. Don't. Owe. You. Men are just as selective (or not), sexually complex (or simplistic), and financially motivated (or ignorant) as women. Everyone's unique and different is the whole point.
Humble yourself, studmuffin. If you're reading LP you're probably a good guy deep down, but straight men are (unsurprisingly) not the victims here! 😉